Current amendment vote tally:
- BCO 14-1: 26–29
- BCO 14-2: 26–30
We will update the count as results come in. Please check back.
Update (3:28 p.m. MST): Calvary Presbytery votes in favor with a vote of 37-31-10 on BCO 14-1 and 38-29-10 on 14-2.
Update (2:52 p.m. MST): South Coast votes against the amendments 18-25 on 14-1 and 16-27 on 14-2.
Update (2:44 p.m. MST): Fellowship Presbytery (in South Carolina) voted against both amendments.
Update (1:03 p.m. MST): NY State became the 27th Presbytery to vote against 14-1, thereby defeating the plan. NY State voted 2-22-1 against 14-1 and 1-22-2 against 14-2.
Update (12:49 p.m. MST): 14-2 amendment fails. There are now 27 votes against 14-2. This defeats the amendment.
Update (12:48 p.m. MST): Pacific Presbytery voted in favor of the amendments. Eastern Carolina voted against the amendments.
Update (11:35 MST): Metro Atlanta approves both amendments. The vote on 14-2 was 46-22-6.
Update (10:40 MST): Central Carolina rejects 14-1 and 14-2 by a vote of 14-77-1.
Super Tuesday is the day in the presidential primaries when the most states vote on who will be the presidential nominee of the Republican and Democratic Parties. Some are calling tomorrow Super Saturday because 10 Presbyteries (1/8 of the total) will be voting on the funding plan.
At this point, 24 Presbyteries have voted against the amendment to 14-1, and 25 Presbyteries have voted against 14-2. Super Saturday will most likely bring the defeat of the amendments.
Here are a few burning questions to consider on the funding plan vote:
- Will byFaith Online actually get their fourth of four articles on the funding plan published before the amendments are defeated? They published their third article this week.
- Will anyone care that our denomination’s news magazine did not publish any substantive articles on the funding plan until the plan was almost defeated?
- What will the response of the Administrative Committee to the defeat of the funding plan be? Will they allow more seats at their table the next time they want to propose a funding plan?
- What will next week’s Cooperative Ministries Committee meeting be like?
- Will the AC coffers fill to the brim as more churches think about the Administrative Committee than ever have before?
I’m sure there are many more. What are your thoughts as this funding plan debate moves to a close?
Well, shoot. I kind of hoped our vote would mean something next week.
[...] Assembly was defeated in the Presbytery voting. You can see the results of today’s voting here. I would hasten to add that votes in other Presbyteries still mean something, even if they will not [...]
It still might, Kevin, in case ‘they’ try to get presbyteries to reconsider their previous votes before GA.
Of course now I am concerned that the AC will come with a new funding plan for this coming GA that will have little thought in it. Somewhat like this last one, which was finalized the Tuesday of the last GA.
Andrew,
It’s just as likely others will come up with plans not only w/o much thought, but w/o knowledge of how the AC and other committees work day-to-day. Also w/o the experience to anticipate and think through unintended consequences.
This may turn out like the old recurring Twilight Zone theme – be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.
Bob
Bob, what are your thoughts on how we can move forward from here? How do we avoid adopting a plan without thought?
Bob,
Is a “back to the drawing board” really so unheard of in the PCA that Admin would refuse to do it? I know the permanent committees aren’t used to defeat, but could there not be a “we heard you, loud and clear,” now we’re going to modify our approach?
Ken,
Sure, but it can’t happen overnight. This plan took time to develop and think out. The next one should as well. GA is in June, the overture deadline will probably be in late April or so (I’m guessing on that). This is the end of January. If you do the math, that’s precious little time to put a comprehensive, well-thought-out plan together. I don’t see any voluntary system being any more successful than the non-working system we have now. The same congregations that don’t support the denomination whose name they carry now will probably continue the same successful (from their viewpoint) path.
Perhaps the best answer in the short term is to raise the GA registration fee to make GA self-sustaining and make By Faith raise its own support to be self-supporting by removing it from the AC budget. Maybe people will pay attention when their GA fee is $600/commissioner (my uneducated guess). One can only hope and pray.
Bob
Wes,
When people can get what they want for nothing, how do you get them to pay for what they already get for free w/o repercussion? I don’t know the answer to that.
My answer in the short term would be what I wrote in response to Ken a minute ago. That should tide us over until the folks who voted this down come up with a realistic better idea. If I were the AC, I wouldn’t put forth a “Plan B” at this point. That’s akin to bringing someone a rock who wanted one and being told “not that rock, go get me a rock”. That’s an infinite waste of time – time that nobody has to waste.
Bob
Bob, thank you for continuing to come on this site to be the foil for everyone’s arguments.:)
I would like to reply to your answers to Ken & me. Just out of curiosity, have you studied the financial data that the AC provides? I’ve spent quite a bit of time looking at it and discussing it. So, let me make a few points.
1. In regards to GA, the General Assembly fee does cover the costs of GA (excluding housing, meals, etc., which our churches pay for), I asked this question specifically to John Robertson in the Admin Committee of Commissioners meeting. I asked him very pointedly if the GA fee does cover the costs. I did not want us to approve a fee that did not actually cover the costs. He informed me that it did cover the costs. In fact, some of the fee is used for other AC purposes!
2. In 2009, the AC finished $33,588 in the black. They did not experience a shortfall.
3. Martin Hedman’s plan, which you can read here, takes into account the difficulty of which you are speaking. It is based on the fact that there are many who attend GA but do not fund AC.
Wes,
I haven’t “studied” the data. I based my position on Scriptural and BCO analysis. I’ve asked to be selected for the AC CoC for the 39th GA to gain additional insight into the situation. The number that most gets my attention, though, is the percentage of congregations using labor and services to which they do not contribute.
Martin’s plan may be worthy of fleshing out. The $2000 figure seems stiff even to me. Rather than a fixed number that must be adjusted by the GA, I’d prefer a multiplier so that the penalty automatically moves up with the GA registration fee. Something on the order of 2.5-3x the registration fee seems reasonable ($1000-$1200 today).
Again, I’m opposed to any replacement plan coming before the GA this year. Any plan needs to be vetted against unintended consequences and long-term viability. We should be proceeding with deliberation, not emotional energy.
Bob
At what point does the registration fee become so large that it prevents smaller PCA churches from participating in GA? Have we already passed that point?
I believe it is wrong to judge that small churches who cannot financially support the denomination are therefore not contributing to the PCA. They are contributing with their presence, their spiritual support, their prayers, and their words and votes at GA. This is more important than the money.
Marshall,
I respectfully disagree. Do you think that it would have been OK if one of the smaller tribes in ancient Israel stopped supporting the Levites? God would have been OK w/that? Does 1 Cor 9:11 say “If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you (unless you are a small church)?” Is $7/member/year an unbearable burden? That’s the price of a lunch per year/member.
Given that, the registration fee would only become that large for churches that don’t support the denomination whose name they carry and whose support and services they consume without compensation (Mt 10:10; Lk 10:7).
Bob
What about college students and RUF? They don’t pay to support their college ministry or minister. Are they taking advantage of services without compensating?
I would encourage everyone to read TE Larry Ball’s article which is posted on The Aquila Report. Bottom Line from the article: The PCA of her General Assembly is very different from the PCA of her Presbyteries.
I think the point about the cost of GA is a valid one. While the current cost of GA is not terribly large for most churches, the actual costs add up very quickly. Airfare of $300-400/person. Hotel room at $150/ night for 4 nights (or so). Plus meals.
This is really very costly, especially for the pastors of small churches. Is any thought given to the burden this places on small churches?
Matthias:
I should do a study sometime on what it cost to attend General Assembly in the 19th century! Riding on horseback for a week or more…
While there certainly is an expense to attending, it is not _necessarily_ as expensive as you describe it.
Housing: Most years there are arrangements made for commissioners to opt to stay in the homes of local PCA families. I don’t know how many take up this opportunity, and admittedly it usually isn’t very convenient and it can’t cover all that many commissioners. But it is an available option. Less expensive motels are the usual choice for those trying to cut costs. Some will stay in RV camps or will double up in rooms, etc.
Travel: Many will drive in and will also carpool, thus cutting their costs.
Meals: Given all the free breakfasts, lunches and dinners offered by agencies, ministries and seminaries, you might get by without spending a dime, or at most, buying just one meal per day. I usually buy a box of cereal bars & some fruit for my breakfasts that week, and the coffee is usually free.
Southwest Presbytery voted against it as well. For what it’s worth, I think Bob (COL Mattes) has the better argument. Oh, well. We know that God will work even in this to bring about good.
Richard,
Thank you for your kind assessment. I agree that God is sovereignly working something here.